Night Vision

[optic]

Guys and gals im just wondering how many of you use N/V, I know of a couple. As David has mentioned in another post we are well under way with the latest N/V project, This is G3 technology. Special stuff.

The original project built by some on here was over 500mm long and heavy, its a great spotter scope with the right gear on it. If you spend the money on the bits its magic.

The new one is under 70mm and our aim is to get it below 450 grams finished, so when i say it sits in your hand i mean it. We do have pics of what it can do but they are under wraps for now, bloody amazing even for a beginner in N/V like myself. And we have a trading name which is also under wraps.

David and i have spent several thousand dollars on bits from all over the world, to make this latest project work, He has spent a heap . But to make this work we needed the right bits and were lucky enough to get them through his dealings from off shore.

And people here in OZ.

There i a massive story behind what we are doing right now and would make an interesting read down the track, for those that could be bothered reading it.

Its not easy with myself in VIC and David In Perth, without the pute and phones we would be well and truly stuffed, and we have never met each other.

We have interest from all over the world on this latest project, the latest being some place in Hawaii, an observatory i think that wants to stick one on a star telescope, also the USA and the UK, so its been noticed by people wanting to know why we wanted certain things.

What i need to mention is this thing will either be a head mounted unit, or a scope mounted unit, turning you day scope into a night scope. It will do both.

Now dont go asking me any technical stuff because i dont really know those answers David does. I just build things to suit the bits. And use it

But i am interested to know what those of you think about N/V use that have them, and what you think about what we are trying to do with g3? This is an Australian invention using off shore bits as they are not available here, are we on the right track?.

I look forward to your feed back, be it positive or negative.

Cheers.

[paulmor07]

Sounds like an interesting project. I followed the other nv topic for quite a while. Your post alone is getting me excited

But also sad because I probably wont be able to buy one lol.

Keep us updated on the progress optic!

[paulmor07]

Ps. The idea of it being usable as both a head unit and scope attachment is brilliant, makes spending the money more easily justifiable. I'm not sure if I appreciate you doing that though haha

[damige]

Cant wait for it mate :D

[will-nsw]

come on mate stop being a tease and show it already

[optic]

Paul we are looking at the possibility of making the body available to you guys along with eye piece and lens, the major cost is the tube itself, we feel if this thing is made a restricted item then we could still sell the body legally as it is our design. Unless we get signed up by the powers to be under a contract, the reason that may happen is because what we are building may well be far better than what our boys have now. These G3 tubes do become available but they are all off shore and you need to be ready to spend the money in a hurry as they do not last long. Thats how rare and sort after they are. So you need 2K on hand. Per tube.

Both CJ hawlk and myself got spares, David got several before the supply was gobbled up by a guy from Germany who may also be interested in our body. Now david may make some of the extra tubes he got available to you guys but they are expensive. Keep in mind the closest thing on the market right now to what we are building is G2 technology, to my knowledge. And top of the range N/V starts at 14K in G2, we are building G3 and it was our hope and desire to get it on the Australian market for a reasonable price and far below 14K.

For the guys that built the project you will remember the size of the tube itself, this stuff we are using now is 44mm in DIA and 31mm LONG. Thats the tube size.

The electronics have all been worked out by my partner and the body design, now its up to me to get the body made and together, and its a complicated process, always is for the first one.

Damige just to tease you mate, i have a working unit here right now and its a nifty bit of gear, if you put my TV lens on it. It becomes an unreal unit.

Any ideas that you have can only help guys, or any questions may also help.

Cheers.

[Guest caveman]

rough price

[Adios]

G3 I presume is Generation 3 . I thought thatt they were already out dated by XD4 and XR5 image tubes.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Happy Jack

[optic]

Anything above g3 is way beyond any of the average hunters price tag, including mine.

Be stuffed if i would pay that sort of money unless it was generating income from it. Like a contract from the QLD government to remove dogs. 85 million?

Not sure i want to talk about the XR5 just yet Thats another story But they are in OZ As i have said the story behind what we are trying to do is a great story. And im lucky to have met a guy like CJHawlk through this forum as well as the other guys that made the project. I had dabbled with N/V in a cheap way prior off ebay, but that was all. Its now a fun thing that may lead to other opportunities for us all.

Please understand im not barging about N/V, we are trying to make it available at a reasonable price for most hunters. Im looking for input from those that have N/V and find it lacks in ability. All of the input will help in the end result.

cheers

[Adios]

Anything above g3 is way beyond any of the average hunters price tag, including mine.

Be stuffed if i would pay that sort of money unless it was generating income from it. Like a contract from the QLD government to remove dogs. 85 million?

Not sure i want to talk about the XR5 just yet Thats another story But they are in OZ As i have said the story behind what we are trying to do is a great story. And im lucky to have met a guy like CJHawlk through this forum as well as the other guys that made the project. I had dabbled with N/V in a cheap way prior off ebay, but that was all. Its now a fun thing that may lead to other opportunities for us all.

Please understand im not barging about N/V, we are trying to make it available at a reasonable price for most hunters. Im looking for input from those that have N/V and find it lacks in ability. All of the input will help in the end result.

cheers

Are the G3 tubes new , unused surplus or used tubes. The tubes have a finite life in hours and old abused tubes may still work but have lost their best performance.

An old used G3 might be no better than a new G1.

I think the average shooter should also look into the CCD IR camera type NV scope. That way they can use it during the day also , with less risk of damaging the device and aging it .

Edited August 15, 2010 by Happy Jack

[optic]

Your right age is a problem, my XR5 has a mark in it, according to my expert its a burn mark.

Its not much of a mark but it has one. Does not change the quality of the image, and crist they are bright.

The tubes that we would supply would be new mate. You cant expect any one to fork out the money needed for one of these things and not get a warranty. So they would have to be new tubes. Or we supply the body and they supply their own tube, then the onus is on them. No harm done.

Im not doing this to upset people in anyway at all, and i know my partner feels the same way.

We would like to build a unit that is better than whats on the market now, thats all.

And at a cheaper price. We think the G3 tubes offer that chance. Im told our forces pay 6k a unit for what they have? Our aim is to make the smallest possible so it can be either head mounted or scope mounted and at a price people can afford.

There has been alot of work done on ours so far, our body is air tight, It is all sealed with orings. We are looking for Mill Spec. There will be a choice of lenses available, each will have its own sealable end cap. And also has a spanner to lock it up tight.

In other words lens and end cap are a unit. As is the eye piece.

The material used is lighter than ally by half the weight. And it is used as a substitute for steel.

I hope from what i have said you get the idea of the amount of work and research we have put into it so far.

We hope this will give us the end result we are looking for, or we failed trying.

But at least we did try.

[cj7hawk]

We hope this will give us the end result we are looking for, or we failed trying.

But at least we did try.

Hi All, Well, the cats well and truly out of this bag and will probably become paddock pizza before we get it back in the bag, so I'll give some details.

At the moment, NV here in Oz is pretty expensive. It's part tube cost and part hardware. We can't do anything about tube cost, so Optic and I began this project about 6 months ago.. ( That's right, it's been on the burner ever since we started the Aluminium Spotting Scope project ).

Optic wanted something smaller... Handheld... Rifle mountable... We made the Alu project rifle-mountable, but it's just too big. It makes a great cheap spotter but it's not so good for other work.

So we talked and decided on the Modular Monocular Project.

This is a 1:1 ( Unity ) project... The idea was to create something that would take all common 18mm tubes. When the 44mm tubes came up ( Optic and I bought bought a couple of Gen3's or so ) then we bought them... Then the XR5's came up... So we got a couple of them too. Now we have samples of the main tubes that are available...

The reason is so that we can come up with a design that takes almost anything. As far as I know, that's not all that common... It will take a Gen2 tube ( eg mx9916, ) A gen 2 SHP, XD4 or XR5 tube or a Gen3 ( 44mm or 36mm ). The idea being that if you can get a reasonably priced tube, then you can get a housing to take it. More than this, it also means you can buy a new tube ( typical cost under $3000 with similar image quality to XR5 ) and house it, then have something as good as our own boys in the army do. If not better.

But we're also making it head-mountable with a standard AN/PVS-14 shoe, so you will be able to hold it, head-mount it, rifle-mount it, scope-mount it and, if we get far enough down this path, turn it into a dedicated riflescope. Headmounts are available internationally and work really well.

Optic is right about the cost... I've spent well over $3000 so far and Optic isn't far behind. Just the parts we need to play with aren't cheap and the design has to be repeatable.

So far we have the following specs;

* A low-cost entry-level eyepiece... The "Gen 3" picture's I've been taking of late are through this eyepiece... It works well and has a BIG 1" dia lens...

* A low-cost C-mount main lens and adapter option. ( Good for fitting other lenses )

* A medium-cost Russian NV main lens (DIPOL) ( 1:1 ) - Very good. Same as you'd find on scopes like the D300.

* A 5-position switch to control operating mode ( Made by the same company who make the US military ones )

* A design completely made from an acid-resistant engineering polymer that won't rust, corrode or weigh you down. ( Optic's Work )

* Compatibility with the American AN/PVS-14 - the most widely used NV scope in the US Military.

* 2 IR power modes...Low for up-close work and High for spotting eyeshine at several hundred meters.

* Designed for Gen3. Standard adapters for Gen2 and modern Gen2/3.

* Standard connection to Rifle mounts ( can be bought off Ebay or from China as a clone )

* Standard connection to Scope Mounts ( can be mounted to the back of a scope ).

This is probably going to be one of the simplest NV designs ever built, but it's incredibly complex to make. It allows for different front lenses, both commercial and military, yet we're aiming to make it waterproof.

The ability to head-mount it means you can stalk your prey in the dark of night, with or without extra IR. The ability to rifle-mount means you'll be able to shoot out to 300m+... ( We're working on long-range IR spotters too ). You will be able to use it with reflex sights or existing telescope sights ( clip on ). We've even designed it so that even if your batteries leak, they can't damage the expensive tube inside, or the electronics.

BUT, as I already mentioned, the biggest feature is that we're trying to work out how to make it take almost any 18mm Gen2/Gen3 tube... That means you can start with a cheap surplus or secondhand tube and go up from there.

Surplus tubes typically have around half the performance of a new tube and sometimes more... A Gen3 tube can have a life of 15000 hours so even after that is used up, it still has plenty of use for hunting and it's rare to find a Gen3 tube that doesn't outperform a Gen2 one, all things being equal. Optic is currently borrowing such a Gen3 from me and it still has enough life for him to shoot sticks out of the ground at 50m...

XD4 and XR5 tubes are VERY good, and one of the Australian importers has told me that his new SHP tubes are performing about on par with them - just a slightly lower resolution... And these are very well priced.

XR5 is still the top of Gen2 and is about on par with US Gen3 Omni IV. I have an XR5 tube with top-notch US Milspec optics and it performs beautifully. But when it gets really dark, the Gen3 has the edge. Gen 3 Omni V and above are likely to exceed XR5 specification. ( The Omni IV's I've seen most certainly do exceed the XR5 when it gets really dark, but once the scope is finished, I'll post pictures of both XR5 and Gen3 Omni IV spec images )

Cost is yet to be determined, but the housing won't be expensive compared to commercial housings currently available. Most of the cost is still in the tube.

Anyway, we're just completing off the prototype ( The proof of concept model was completed weeks ago ). As soon as it's done, we'll take some shots and show you all what this project has been about

David

p.s. Here's a quick snap of the base of a tree with some grass, through a dayscope... Just with the NV scope up behind the ocular lens as per "clip on" mode - Tube is a Photonis autogated XR5 - xx2450BP. If there was a rabbit there, you'd definately have seen it... Sorry about the blurry shot - the crosshairs were very sharp to my eyes.

[500Nitro]

What are you using for a tube ?

Titanium ?

Gives you light but very strong.

[cj7hawk]

What are you using for a tube ?

Titanium ?

Gives you light but very strong.

Titanium is nice, but very expensive and the material costs would make the monocular prohibitive. Since we're machining, we're removing a lot of material and Titanium would pose some problems in the design too...

And the moment, we're using Delrin. The prototypes are white but the finals will be black. It has excellent wearing properties and is even less affected by chemicals than Titanium... It's not cheap either ( Milspec Delrin costs upwards of $1000 per linear foot in the sizes we're using ) but we think we've located a reasonable supply of Black Delrin in the US. This stuff won't fade and is a recommended replacement for aluminium projects.

Like the rest of the parts, we needed to make sure we have a regular supply line of the material as well.

David.

[b_rogers]

Titanium is nice, but very expensive and the material costs would make the monocular prohibitive. Since we're machining, we're removing a lot of material and Titanium would pose some problems in the design too...

And the moment, we're using Delrin. The prototypes are white but the finals will be black. It has excellent wearing properties and is even less affected by chemicals than Titanium... It's not cheap either ( Milspec Delrin costs upwards of $1000 per linear foot in the sizes we're using ) but we think we've located a reasonable supply of Black Delrin in the US. This stuff won't fade and is a recommended replacement for aluminium projects.

Like the rest of the parts, we needed to make sure we have a regular supply line of the material as well.

David.

a suggestion..the internal threads that secure the c mount lens should be metal, not delrin.

i had some c -mount adapters made up in delrin for the pvs-5, and after a few mountings and dismounting a few fine slivers of plastic will get on the photocathode causing spots and i will have to remove and blow out with canned air.

just an observation..

[500Nitro]

I'll leave you to it but like the poster above, I can see even Mil spec Delrin wearing

but that's my view.

The last time I looked at Titanium tube (that was being used for Mil components)

it was about the same price.

I find when building things is trying to get everything standardized with replicable components

so it's just a matter of putting things together easily and not worrying about finding parts.

Either way, what you are doing sounds interesting.

[cj7hawk]

I'll leave you to it but like the poster above, I can see even Mil spec Delrin wearing

but that's my view.

The last time I looked at Titanium tube (that was being used for Mil components)

it was about the same price.

I find when building things is trying to get everything standardized with replicable components

so it's just a matter of putting things together easily and not worrying about finding parts.

Either way, what you are doing sounds interesting.

Delrin's wear properties are usually pretty good, but we do plan on helicoiling the threads to avoid problems. Stainless steel is always a good choice for frequently installed/removed threads. Also, even though the Milspec Delrin is expensive ( like Titanium ) it's possible to get the same item ( or very close to it ) but without the paper-trail for a fraction of the price - not so easy with Titanium. It's also just as useful for non-mil use, so represents a useful cost saving and keeps development costs realistic.

C-mount threads are a tough one... We're making this one CS-mount anyway, so it should be possible to install an adapter ( Aluminium ) that will take the frequent work of insertions and removals... Though the current design also allows for directly making the entire front-face out of other materials ( such as aluminium or any other metal ) - So the main lens which is likely to be removed/replaced on a regular basis can connect directly to a different material.

There may be other factors we haven't considered yet and other things we still need to do, but we probably won't know until the prototypes are finished and tried out. As Optic said, we'll succeed or fail but if we do fail, it won't be for a lack of trying

While I know others NV dealers have made their own NV housings in the past ( and very good ones too ) I don't know of anyone has attempted something quite like this locally - making a scope housing that's compatible with existing head/rifle mount equipment.

David.

[Adios]

Good luck I hope you succeed in your endevor. Promotion of the product is as important as the engineering. Remember the 6 mm Remington it got done by an inferior cartridge , the 243 Winchester , because of better product promotion.

[optic]

I enjoyed the reading David, i had forgot just how much work we had put into this thing before we even started.

The parts will be off the shelf folks, This will be a production type unit, same parts in every body. Sleeves will be a standard off the shelf supply to suit the tubes that are being used.

I take note of the concern about the material, and threads stripping, the 1st off will be all made from the same material. The production model will have ally if not something else as an end cap for the lens or a standard Delrin body with options. We will change material where needed. As mentioned the daily use threads will be coiled so stripping does not happen.

The Delrin was chosen for a number of reasons as mentioned, It is showing us just how good it is in this project. It is a dog to machine at times and a delight at others.

We were talking about a 3 bar test on this, and that would be a completed unit, but i want to test the body far beyond that, The body will not fail but other things may and i want to know about it now not later. If the lens or eye piece fail then we will look at them to try and improve them, Already i have found every eye piece we have got to be loose inside, this was found when i made a spanner to remove the glass to machine the body and thread it, so heads up for us there. This is one of the reasons i asked for input, using the eye piece as an example. Have you found any other problems with off the shelf items?

All threads have an o ring seal, Many trials were done to find the right interference fit, this alone took hours.

And untold test pieces. As you can see from what David has said, it is obvious he knows his stuff and for that reason i decided to team up with him and try and build something that is unique to Australia and made by ozzies for the every day ozzie hunter, at a price they may be able to afford. So far what we have works, so it can only improve from here on.

Please feel free to ask any questions, i value your input.

Cheers.

[Adios]

This is my pathetic attempt at taking a photo through my CCD camera NV scope. Range of back ground foliage is 50 meters. Quarter moon , however the background foliage is in total darkness under heavy tree cover.

Short rang IR illuminator is on. Through my 4 to 12 x 50 Leupold scope I could see nothing in the same spot under the trees.

The picture does not do justice to the actual image your eyes see . However you can see some detail of a branch and leaves in the background . If there was a mouse on that branch I could have seen him quite well.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Happy Jack