Night Vision Scopes

[cj7hawk]

i have just purchase a arie 390 from nvt, now i want a bulb for my torch to enhace detection range, where can i get a bulb for my torch and what would i be looking for please

I take it that the little 450mw illuminator that comes with that model isn't sufficient?

Without knowing more about what range and conditions you're shooting, I can't be more specific, but you can get an inexpensive 3W IR illuminator from china -

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12625 and

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.16178

put together would do it - then just use a torch mount to add it to your rifle.

Although the beam spread may not be what you want. If that's the case, you may need to go for an IR laser -

eg, a Dipol L3 or similar that can focus a very narrow beam. Be wary though that there are "fake" ones around.

I will add though that I'm not an expert on illuminators - nearly all my NV is passive ( no illumination ) so although I am building a narrow-beam IR for my Gen3, it's not something I use a lot. The UK airgun forum is probably the best forum in the world to ask questions about illuminators and Gen1, especially in relation to add-on, since they use them so often.

They use NV in the UK for ratting, rabbiting and foxing.

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21

Keep in mind though that at 1 to 5 degrees FOV, extended use will cause additional wear to a Gen1 scope. The narrow beam is both a benefit and a problem, but is great for accurate shot placement even if it makes scanning the target area difficult.

David.

[Guest caveman]

not sure wether it's good enough just wanted more range,

i had a look through one a few yrs back and it was great, could see a horse at about 150m, should be here this week will let you know

[len]

You can tell us, we wont tell anyone

Its all secret squirrel stuff

[jeansy]

Australian military use Gen2. That's both the Navy and Army. Typically, they use the XD4 and XR5 tubes ( it is public information - though I can understand someone in the forces probably isn't comfortable talking about it ). Officially, Australia calls these Gen2 since we've standardized with US,NZ,UK and Canada on terminology.

US Military use Gen3 - The main difference is that Gen3 use a GaAs photocathode which is more sensitive to starlight than the extended-red multi-alkali type used in Gen2. Russia and China and maybe Iran also use Gen3. Europe use Gen2.

No one uses Gen4, though they do exist. Gen4 is a GaAs tube with autogating and doesn't have the AlO ion barrier on the microchannel plate. They don't have the longevity to meet current military requirements. Gen5 and Gen6 ( mentioned earlier ) don't exist. The US hasn't written the specification for either of them and last I checked, all current Omnibus contracts were for Gen3.

There's not a lot of difference between the latest Gen2/3/4 tubes, so Australia using Gen2 tubes isn't really a significant impediment. Some Gen3 use occurs in aviation due to the requirements to use "approved" devices, most of which are of US manufacture. Australia is one of the few countries that the US will sell Gen3 to and you can buy it new here, but expect to pay around $10K.

David.

David

i think you need to re check your sources, australia doesnt use gen 2 its gen 3 and thats from the service manual and post issue reports, and it was a part of the conditions to acquire nvg was to acquire gen 3 tech, funny enough this what we instruct, and first hand experience gen5 exists within certain units of the yank forces which ive had the op to play with with, as for gen 6, they were expected to issued mid 09 to certain units, where i got my info on these was from a horse's mouth

i have no idea on your background so i cant comment but i do say arent the typical loud mouth here shooting his gums off with dribble so i do acknowledge that you know something about this topic, as for yourself, you have no idea about mine

if we are to agree to disagree on this so be it, im not after a slinging match, i just going off what i instruct and my some good mates in certain units overseas units have shown me and passed onto me

Edited December 28, 2009 by jeansy

[cj7hawk]

Hi Jeansy,

I agree that this isn't the place to argue but it's a great place for an open discussion, at least as far as you feel comfortable discussing it. Perhaps we'll both learn something. I'm a night vision researcher, so I love to have new things pointed out to me. Especially if it's something I wasn't aware of.

The last time I checked, Gen4 wasn't being issued.. I know it exists because I've seen evidence of it's deployment on some tubes but every source I have suggests that Omni VII isn't Gen4. The consumer market calls it Gen4, but the US military call it Omni-VII Gen III. I've yet to track down the original written specifications for Gen4, but it's basically autogated/filmless/GaAs. Omni VII is thin filmed, autogated, GaAs.

It's not to say that there's not more advanced technology out there - SWIR ( Around 1300-1500nm ) technology looks like it will be the next major development, but it's a long way from being a generation yet. This tech has the ability to see straight through smoke and haze - it's far more effective than LWIR in this respect. There's also UWB radar which sees through walls and obstacles and can detect minor movement ( ie, heartbeat detector ) - Some amazing technology there that has only just been authorized for wide deployment and manufacture in the last few months. None of that equipment is covered by generation specifications.

To my understanding, the only official "Generations" are 2,3 and 4 with a semi-official "Super Second Generation" as defined by Jacques Dupuy of Philips ( France ) which isn't really recognized in the US since they don't make it. The main thing about Generations is that they are published, so there's nothing all that secret about a generation specification.

At present, I believe the Australian military uses the XD-4 and XR5 tubes ( XR5 being the autogated ). You can read the specification of the XR5 tube here -

http://www.photonis.com/nightvision/produc..._specifications

Quite an impressive tube... I've been told that side by side, only the very latest US GenIII tubes outperform it.

However, no matter which way you look at it, that's a Gen2 tube... A very advanced tube, but only a Gen2 - or if you follow the specification by Jacques Dupuy, it's a Super Second Generation - ie, A second generation tube capable of performing as well as a Gen3 tube. ( And the XR5 is a very good performer ). I could guess that DEP/Photonis consider this a "5th" generation device for them, given the 5 in the name, but that doesn't make it Generation 5. They also have a special ops/aviation version which might even be considered their sixth generation.

And that's not to say I haven't heard of Gen3 being used in the Australian Military - but I certainly haven't heard that we're buying in large quantities of US tubes. I know the US state department now allows direct approvals for NV under ITAR that's destined for the Australian Government/Military though. Still, other than aviation, I'm guessing the most common Gen3 device we would purchase for the army would use the Omni VII MX-11769/UV as per Milspec MIL-PRF-3256323D which is most definately recent Gen3 ( according to the US military )... That spec was only released mid-2005, which isn't all that long ago.

Given that this is the tube most manufactured under contract in the US and that it's Gen3, and that Australia, the UK, US, Canada and New Zealand all agreed on standardized terms nearly half a century ago - though originally it was just US/Can/Australia - the others came later - I feel pretty confident with the material I've seen so far.

But if you are able to provide any additional information as to what a new "Generation" might actually be, I'd love to hear it -

Alternately, since I realize you may not be able to openly discuss this, you can take the information above and ask if it's the XR5 tube that is being referred to, or perhaps even the Omni VII tubes such as the MX-11769 as you'd find in an AN/PVS-14 type housing. If it is ( which I expect it's probably the XR5 which can even be used during the day time ) then rest assured that it really is Gen2.

Gen2 isn't a bad thing.... It's just an American thing. The US stopped producing Gen2 tubes a long time ago... The rest of the world continued research. But to be Gen3, it has to have a GaAs photocathode, which the XR5 does not.

Anyway, I don't want to dispute you, so I've simply laid what I know on the table and it's all verifyable - If there is something more you have, which you can tell me, please do. After all, it may be that we both agree already - only we're using different terms... I'd love to know if the Australian military *is* referring to the XR5 as "Gen 5"...

It also might be worth taking this discussion to email if you're happy to talk about what you can? It's probably too boring for this forum and it's a little off topic too -

David,

David

i think you need to re check your sources, australia doesnt use gen 2 its gen 3 and thats from the service manual and post issue reports, and it was a part of the conditions to acquire nvg was to acquire gen 3 tech, funny enough this what we instruct, and first hand experience gen5 exists within certain units of the yank forces which ive had the op to play with with, as for gen 6, they were expected to issued mid 09 to certain units, where i got my info on these was from a horse's mouth

i have no idea on your background so i cant comment but i do say arent the typical loud mouth here shooting his gums off with dribble so i do acknowledge that you know something about this topic, as for yourself, you have no idea about mine

if we are to agree to disagree on this so be it, im not after a slinging match, i just going off what i instruct and my some good mates in certain units overseas units have shown me and passed onto me

[len]

Hi Jeansy,

I agree that this isn't the place to argue but it's a great place for an open discussion, at least as far as you feel comfortable discussing it. Perhaps we'll both learn something. I'm a night vision researcher, so I love to have new things pointed out to me. Especially if it's something I wasn't aware of.

The last time I checked, Gen4 wasn't being issued.. I know it exists because I've seen evidence of it's deployment on some tubes but every source I have suggests that Omni VII isn't Gen4. The consumer market calls it Gen4, but the US military call it Omni-VII Gen III. I've yet to track down the original written specifications for Gen4, but it's basically autogated/filmless/GaAs. Omni VII is thin filmed, autogated, GaAs.

It's not to say that there's not more advanced technology out there - SWIR ( Around 1300-1500nm ) technology looks like it will be the next major development, but it's a long way from being a generation yet. This tech has the ability to see straight through smoke and haze - it's far more effective than LWIR in this respect. There's also UWB radar which sees through walls and obstacles and can detect minor movement ( ie, heartbeat detector ) - Some amazing technology there that has only just been authorized for wide deployment and manufacture in the last few months. None of that equipment is covered by generation specifications.

To my understanding, the only official "Generations" are 2,3 and 4 with a semi-official "Super Second Generation" as defined by Jacques Dupuy of Philips ( France ) which isn't really recognized in the US since they don't make it. The main thing about Generations is that they are published, so there's nothing all that secret about a generation specification.

At present, I believe the Australian military uses the XD-4 and XR5 tubes ( XR5 being the autogated ). You can read the specification of the XR5 tube here -

http://www.photonis.com/nightvision/produc..._specifications

Quite an impressive tube... I've been told that side by side, only the very latest US GenIII tubes outperform it.

However, no matter which way you look at it, that's a Gen2 tube... A very advanced tube, but only a Gen2 - or if you follow the specification by Jacques Dupuy, it's a Super Second Generation - ie, A second generation tube capable of performing as well as a Gen3 tube. ( And the XR5 is a very good performer ). I could guess that DEP/Photonis consider this a "5th" generation device for them, given the 5 in the name, but that doesn't make it Generation 5. They also have a special ops/aviation version which might even be considered their sixth generation.

And that's not to say I haven't heard of Gen3 being used in the Australian Military - but I certainly haven't heard that we're buying in large quantities of US tubes. I know the US state department now allows direct approvals for NV under ITAR that's destined for the Australian Government/Military though. Still, other than aviation, I'm guessing the most common Gen3 device we would purchase for the army would use the Omni VII MX-11769/UV as per Milspec MIL-PRF-3256323D which is most definately recent Gen3 ( according to the US military )... That spec was only released mid-2005, which isn't all that long ago.

Given that this is the tube most manufactured under contract in the US and that it's Gen3, and that Australia, the UK, US, Canada and New Zealand all agreed on standardized terms nearly half a century ago - though originally it was just US/Can/Australia - the others came later - I feel pretty confident with the material I've seen so far.

But if you are able to provide any additional information as to what a new "Generation" might actually be, I'd love to hear it -

Alternately, since I realize you may not be able to openly discuss this, you can take the information above and ask if it's the XR5 tube that is being referred to, or perhaps even the Omni VII tubes such as the MX-11769 as you'd find in an AN/PVS-14 type housing. If it is ( which I expect it's probably the XR5 which can even be used during the day time ) then rest assured that it really is Gen2.

Gen2 isn't a bad thing.... It's just an American thing. The US stopped producing Gen2 tubes a long time ago... The rest of the world continued research. But to be Gen3, it has to have a GaAs photocathode, which the XR5 does not.

Anyway, I don't want to dispute you, so I've simply laid what I know on the table and it's all verifyable - If there is something more you have, which you can tell me, please do. After all, it may be that we both agree already - only we're using different terms... I'd love to know if the Australian military *is* referring to the XR5 as "Gen 5"...

It also might be worth taking this discussion to email if you're happy to talk about what you can? It's probably too boring for this forum and it's a little off topic too -

David,

What he said

[jeansy]

David

JESUS!

that was one hellva of a reply, well done im definitely learning more as i read

to provide some direction, our sets are gas that require 12mths purge, i was unlucky enough miss the gas course so i cant provide much on details on the ins and outs, the gas sets have been in service since at least 2001 when i did my int quals, saldy , i cant find a pic of online of the set we use so i wont post one

prior to that we had the old bulky gen 2 unit which was phased out before 2001 pictured below this was also known as the 12,7mm NWS

as for the gen 5 stuff, it wasnt from aus sources it was from a friends in overseas units w, im not sure on what we call gen 5 but im sure what the US mil call gen 5 we would follow suit

Edited December 29, 2009 by jeansy

[Duncs]

It also might be worth taking this discussion to email if you're happy to talk about what you can? It's probably too boring for this forum and it's a little off topic too -

Nah - keep it coming! I might not understand it all but its definitely interesting. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Leper]

Nah - keep it coming! I might not understand it all but its definitely interesting. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Bloody oath mate. Keep it coming guy's. Can you tell us what the different gens can really do please. That would be a good start. Very Interesting stuff.

I remember walking picket one night back in the 70's. Busted the armorer taking a night scope out at around 2 in the morning. The thing was huge. To shut me up he let have a look through it and tried to explain how it worked. Never did dob him in though.

Thanks in advance.

P.S I vaguely remember the name "Constellation" he used it not terms of the stars but in the name of the scope.

[cj7hawk]

Nah - keep it coming! I might not understand it all but its definitely interesting. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I find that there's not a lot of support or understanding of NV equipment in Australia... Which seems at odds with it's usefulness, especially when hunting. For some reason, people seem to assume it's all military stuff...

Because of that, the stuff costs a fortune here ( about twice as much as it should ) and we're limited in what's available... A lot of people only ever get to see Gen1 equipment and figure it's all about using IR light while the better passive equipment is out of the range of many people, if their even aware of it, with most thinking it's just military stuff.

Yet it's possible to build a passive spotting scope that can see a fox over 400m away by starlight for just a few hundred dollars, or perhaps one that could see a fox perhaps two kilometers away with some extra IR light for a little more. There's still some decent military surplus overseas that isn't too difficult to find... Just add some PVC pipe, a little araldyte, an old camera lens, batteries and a magnifying glass and you're set.

Last year, that was my Christmas project... I think it cost me $180 all up... if anyone wants to do the same, let me know and I'll talk you through the progess ( and provide links to what others have done similarly ).

Here's a picture taken through my $180 scope compared to a high-quality Gen2 image through the same lens...

David.

p.s. Thanks for the image, Jeansy - I wasn't aware that we used the AN/TVS-5 under a different moniker. That particular image was an AN/TVS-5A which is the current Gen3 version - very good for long-range work. I know we had the AN/PVS-4 in the past though.

I think we've lost something in moving entirely to the newer technology... The 25mm inverter tubes they used in the old PVS-4 and TVS-5 didn't suffer from halification at all - something even the best current technology hasn't been able to replicate with proximity focussed tubes. The US commercialised NV so much that ITT even went as far as patenting the idea of "one tube fits all" with little regard to some tubes being inherently more suitable for other purposes... Electrostatic inversion tubes would improve aviation safety substantially. Do you know if the Australians ever upgraded any of the AN/PVS-4's to AN/PVS-4A's ? ( Assuming that's not sensitive information - understand if you can't provide it. )

[PaulOS]

Hi David, if you don't mind, I picked up a Bushnell 4X50 Prowler Night Vision Monocoular model 26-4050 to use whilst camping on an island (to actually keep an eye on the boat whilst anchored at night) and whilst it did the job I was a little disappointed when I took it up to our property to scan the fields at night, any suggestions to "improve" it? I saw your links above for the IR lamps (but by the comments the product only lasts minutes is some cases) worth going to something like this?

Thanks

Edited December 30, 2009 by PaulOS

[jeansy]

p.s. Thanks for the image, Jeansy - I wasn't aware that we used the AN/TVS-5 under a different moniker. That particular image was an AN/TVS-5A which is the current Gen3 version - very good for long-range work. I know we had the AN/PVS-4 in the past though.

I think we've lost something in moving entirely to the newer technology... The 25mm inverter tubes they used in the old PVS-4 and TVS-5 didn't suffer from halification at all - something even the best current technology hasn't been able to replicate with proximity focussed tubes. The US commercialised NV so much that ITT even went as far as patenting the idea of "one tube fits all" with little regard to some tubes being inherently more suitable for other purposes... Electrostatic inversion tubes would improve aviation safety substantially. Do you know if the Australians ever upgraded any of the AN/PVS-4's to AN/PVS-4A's ? ( Assuming that's not sensitive information - understand if you can't provide it. )

Honeslty i couldnt tell you if we upgraded, we got rid of those "old hunk of junks" almost ten yrs ago i havent seen them since 2000ish honesty compared to our current sets they were awful they where only good for 12.7s(50cals) and even that they were useless

[cj7hawk]

Hi David, if you don't mind, I picked up a Bushnell 4X50 Prowler Night Vision Monocoular model 26-4050 to use whilst camping on an island (to actually keep an eye on the boat whilst anchored at night) and whilst it did the job I was a little disappointed when I took it up to our property to scan the fields at night, any suggestions to "improve" it? I saw your links above for the IR lamps (but by the comments the product only lasts minutes is some cases) worth going to something like this?

Thanks

Hi Paul,

A cheap IR filter over a flashlight always works well - eg

Ebay 850nm IR filter

Just get a nice flashlight ( NOT a LED - Must have a globe - make it a bright one with an adjustable beam ) and stick this over the top of it... This will give you quite a bit of range without too much size.

I didn't look too closely at the comments on the IR torch - but it's worth heeding them. You can also use a multi-led if it's not that much range you require - eg, Like this...

But it's all just flashlights... And like all flashlights, it has it's limitations.

Lasers go a LOT further, but a good one will probably cost as much as your original NVM did.

Best for scanning fields is Cascade, Gen2 or higher and you're not going to be able to upgrade the scope you have.

That leaves selling the Bushnell and getting a higher spec NV as the best option. You could build a Cascade scope with a surplus military tube ( a lot of fun and pretty cheap - see my last post ) or buy a decent passive scope such as a D300 Gen2.

You could even re-use the objective lens and eyepiece lens from your Gen1 scope if you wanted to take it apart, though you're probably better off selling it. A good lens like that would be quite impressive on a cascade scope though.

Here's a pic I took through the cascade scope project - The conditions are no moon and no streetlamps, just outside of the Perth area. The image appeared brighter to my eye.

The near lamppost is about 80m away, the next is 200m away and the far side of the road around the curve is 230m away.

There is no illumination at all other than the stars. With a 400mw IR LED narrow-beam lamp, I would see detail on the far trees...

With a Gen1, I would expect this entire picture to be black, except maybe a little of the road in front of me and it might be possible, just, to make out a lamp post.

Unfortunately, that's the limitation of gain.

A Cascade, Gen2 or Gen3 scope has two to three orders of magnitude more light amplification capability than a Gen1 scope.

David

[PaulOS]

Thanks for the info David, I appreciate it. I might try the easy cheap options first and if that does not do a good enough job just fork out the $ (which I should have done in the first place, the old cry once.... )

Cheers

Paul

Edited December 30, 2009 by PaulOS

[philski1]

Thanks for all the info guys!!!!

Who has used some of the gen 1 and 2 scopes that are available and what where they and how where they?

As i pointed out 100m is probably all i need for dogs and foxes.

Im just after info on off the shelf scopes under $3,000 thanks

cheers

Phil

[Guest caveman]

i have just got a gen one unit for just around $1100. and it seem ok out to 100m, no good on overcast days(daytime), flat out seein a wallaby at 50,

havn't taken it into the field properly yet, but i'm inpreeseed so far, you can get gen 2 for around $1500

[dann81]

What model was it Caveman

Oops just saw it in a previous post

Edited January 6, 2010 by dann81