Night Vision Scope For Spotting - Project - Like To Join In?

[cj7hawk]

Hi All,

Following the interest by a few people from the last thread, I thought I'd start a new thread for anyone interested in building a Night Vision spotting scope.

The project scope will be kind of large - Mine is 80mm by about 300 mm - Weighs 2 Kg... But it has about a 40 degree field of view in the viewfinder ( twice as wide as a day scope ) and can spot larger animals at about 500m with just starlight ( Unlike cheaper Gen1 scopes, this will be able to see several kilometers, though magnification and image clarity will reduce the range at which you can spot a small animal - just as it is during the day ).

The total cost if you want to make one will be about $200 - That's entirely for parts, many of which you'll have to get from your local hardware store. The tubes are in the UK and are ex-military tubes... You'll need to order them directly from the supplier. I'll provide my time to go through this project without charge. That's actually less than the cost of a cheap NV monocle in Gen1, but you'll end up with a scope that can compete with Gen2 and Gen3 in terms of gain and quality.

I've gone through this process a few times - Most people are successful since they are not hard or difficult to build. This time I'm also planning on building one at the same time and with repeatable parts so the method can be followed, though I'll also help anyone who has bits laying around and wants to use them. I'll post images here too as I go.

Details:

The tube I'm going to use is a P8079HP - It's a first generation tube. In fact, it's three first generation tubes, stacked end to end. Each tube amplifies the image of the last, so the final gain is about 100,000 times. That's in comparison to about 500-1000 times for a Gen1, 5000 to 50,000 times for Gen2 and 10,000 to 70,000 times for Gen3. These tubes are sensitive enough to use starlight to give a workable image. The only drawback is the size and weight, and a little bit of image distortion ( like a fish-eye lens ). These are older used tubes, but still have good life left in them.

They are ex-military surplus from the UK, taken out of tanks and sniper rifles when they were upgraded as far as I know. These are an advanced version of what was used in Vietnam.

You will also need a housing for it - I use 80mm PVC and PVC-endcaps and some threaded adapters.

Some power ( A 6v battery pack from Jaycar that holds 4x AA batteries is suitable and will run it for about 20-40 continuous hours. Maybe more. )

And some lenses... That means magnifying glass lenses from Ebay or similar and a good front-lens from a camera, which you can either buy or take from an old camera.

And some black paint.

Being able to solder is an advantage, but it's not critical... If anyone gets stuck there, I may be able to help.

Anyway, if you're interested, let me know and we'll start talking and keeping details in this thread. I'm planning on starting in a few weeks time...

The most critical part to get is the tube.

http://www.anchorsupplies.com/night_vision.htm - the P8079HP is at the bottom of the page.

Once you have a tube and confirm it's working, then the rest is easy

I'm not planning on a rifle-mounted design, though if you have access to a good workshop it is possible.

Anyway, let me know if you'd like to tag along for this one - it's a fun project at minimal cost and will give you a scope that will work almost as well as one costing thousands...

David.

[Gigitt]

subscribed

[Duncs]

Count me in!

[Duncs]

The most critical part to get is the tube.

http://www.anchorsupplies.com/night_vision.htm - the P8079HP is at the bottom of the page.

Once you have a tube and confirm it's working, then the rest is easy

So we need one of these tubes or three?

[dann81]

Im in

[Guest caveman]

same on the tubes, what happens if we get it here and the tube-s don't work,

any chance of a bulk order on the tubes

also they don't seem to have an email contact

Edited January 8, 2010 by caveman

[PaulOS]

I'm in

Edited January 8, 2010 by PaulOS

[cj7hawk]

Hi Guys -

The "Email" button is at the bottom of their page and they have specific details about foreign transactions... It might be possible to bring in several tubes to one place, but then it costs more to ship them out all over Australia after that... I'll email anchor and see if there's any shipping reduction or bulk-discount. I'll post what they respond in the morning ( if they respond overnight ).

Some people do get broken tubes... It just happens. For what it's worth, that supplier has a reputation for replacing DOA tubes... Though I imagine there would be some extra postage costs involved if it happened. That's something you want to figure into your overall price.

Each P8079HP contains three internal Gen1 tubes - each is bonded together with fiber-optics - you can't take them apart. At least not without destroying them. It also has a high-voltage power supply ( about 40,000 volts ) but they just take 6v externally to run. You only need to buy 1 of these...

There are also some Varo tubes on Ebay, which are comparable to the P8079HP. You could use them too, but Anchor are advertising that their tubes are guaranteed working while the guy selling the Varo's is not.

Cascade tubes were originally developed by the Germans during WW2, but they didn't work terribly well. The Germans used optical couples between tubes and gain was quite low.

The US later developed the alkali based photocathodes which are a lot more sensitive and when they developed fiber optic bundles, they combined the two devices. The original cascade tubes performed far in excess of expectations but later they added a third tube to invert the image. Inverting the image is important, because our scopes will invert the image before it gets to the tube, so a second inversion makes everything the "right way up".

The Russians made some of their cascade tubes with just two tubes, of which the most well known is the "Cactus" tube - it was small enough to install in modern sniper scopes.

Since a Gen1 tube only amplifies light a few hundred times, it won't work in Starlight where amplification of around 10,000 times or higher is needed.

Because these devices have 3 tubes inside, each tube is multiplied by the first, so they are very high gain.

Anyway, as mentioned, the first part to order is the tube... Once you have that and test it's working OK, then you're ready to go.

The second part to get is the front or Objective lens. An old 35mm camera lens is sufficient for this - but you want a FAST lens. A FAST lens means a lens designed for FAST film - so it lets a lot of light in. Ideally, you want a lens faster than F2.0 though a little over this still works. That means a lens of F1.0 is fantastic and F1.4 to F1.6 would be very good.

Some camera lenses don't show the F number, but will say something like 1:2.2 - That means F2.2

You can use slower lenses, but they will reduce the light. That's fine if you want to have a high zoom, but you may need a brighter night with some moonlight.

Also, get lenses that will supply the size of the photocathode, which in this case is 25mm... In terms of camera lenses, that means get a 1" lens at the least. You will be able to use smaller lenses, but you will lose image. Especially at the edges.

One thing to mention up front as well is that these tubes are VERY sensitive to light. That means that too much light can damage them, burning the tube or leading to failure. They also hold their charge for a LONG TIME, so after turning a tube on, don't expose it to light for at least 10 minutes.

Also, never point them at the sun while charged or turned on, ever. Even with a daylight cap in place. This will burn the screen and permanently damage the tube.

However, when they are completely discharged, you can handle them quite safely in normal ( even daylight ) light conditions.

Also, be careful with the screen and photocathode ends. They can be scratched which will reduce the image quality.

David.

[cj7hawk]

Here's an approximate diagram of what we're making... That's with 80mm PVC, two endcaps, a C/CS mount adapter ( unless you're using an old SLR camera and lens ) and two threaded pipe joiners to hold the eyepiece lens.

Then we run 6v to the tube... Hopefully, this image will give an idea how easily these can be made -

If a SLR camera lens is used instead, then the distance noted is about 45mm instead of 12.5mm.

The gap around the tube is filled with spacers to maintain tube position... Normally you just fix that front space with an accurate spacer, however I have some ideas to allow an adjustable spacer to allow fine tuning

David,

Edited January 8, 2010 by cj7hawk

[Guest caveman]

looking forward to this, have the camera lense,, can you put a straight forward list up david of the parts we need

[cj7hawk]

looking forward to this, have the camera lense,, can you put a straight forward list up david of the parts we need

The main parts are actually as per that diagram. 80mm PVC tubing and 2 x 80mm PVC endcaps.

If you're using a Camera lens, then you may have to improvise a little when attaching the mount-point. I usually use both screws and epoxy resin to affix a camera lens-mount.

Otherwise, the CS-mount ring and lens I'm planning on trying first are on Ebay:

Item: 200412848479 - 25mm 1" F1.4 lens ( That's a 1" image and 25mm focal length )

Item: 370301378148 - CS mount adapter - Just drill a hole and stick this in, then you can mount the above lens.

I already have a 75mm C-Mount lens as well - so will see how both go.

For a viewing (Ocular) lens, I usually use a loupe from deal-extreme -

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.25237 - Approx US$16 including postage - and you get a free telescope!

For front/rear adjustment, I use threaded pipe adapters - At the rear to adjust the eyepiece and I'm thinking one at the front to allow adjustment of the focal plane precisely - though I still have to make one and test it.

http://general.blackice.com.au/pics/2010/N...ts/eyepiece.jpg

For 6v, a standard 4AA battery adapter ( with switch ).

That's 99% of the parts.. From there, it's all improvisation - and I'm not sure everyone will go for the same lens...

The intent is to provide sufficient instruction so that everyone can complete the project, while allowing enough leeway in the design to allow customisation.

David.

[cj7hawk]

Tube details are back - Here's the response I got.

Hello

Thanks for your email we currently have the tubes available postage via parcelforce per tube will be £45.00 these have been tested via to dispatch payment via paypal, postal order, bank transfer only please.We are also unable to offer discount on quantity

Regards

Charlotte Skinner

Electronics Department Manager

Anchor Supplies Limited

The Cattle Market

Nottingham

NG2 3GY

Tele(01159)864902

Fax (01159)864667

www.anchorsupplies.com

Anchor Supplies Ltd, The Cattlemarket, Nottingham NG2 3GY, England

Tel: +00 44 (0)115 986 4902 Fax: +00 44(0)115 986 4667 www.anchorsupplies.com

Open Mon-Fri 8:30am to 5;30pm, Sat 8am to 4pm, Sun CLOSED

Registered Office: Hacker Young Chartered Accountants, 22 The Ropewalk, Nottingham NG1 5DT

Registered in England. Company Registration No. 1556948

OK, so group buys aren't great and you need Paypal... Not too bad, especially if you already use Ebay.. Otherwise you're better off putting your order in with a friend who has Paypal.

No sense in getting them together otherwise - Just too expensive to remail all over Australia, though the price is good - that's $40-$50 than the last time I did this... And some of you might get away with a scope for under $100...

I checked Bunnings for the 80mm pipe and endcaps. Seems they've stopped stocking 80mm endcaps, so check if you can get the pipe and endcaps... Otherwise you'll need to find another supplier other than the major hardware chains.

I'm just searching for a new supplier of 80mm pipe and endcaps that can supply over the Internet at the moment.

You can use 90mm, but it's just a touch too large to grip comfortably, so 80mm is better.

More to come shortly But don't delay on those tubes... They take a few weeks to get over here usually. I'm going to order my tube in a fortnight when I get paid again, but then I already have a spare tube here to get started with and I'll replace it with the new one.

David

[Funky Munky]

Have you got any pics taken through the spotter? I'm very interested in making one but wondering what the quality is like.

[cj7hawk]

Have you got any pics taken through the spotter? I'm very interested in making one but wondering what the quality is like.

Yes, quite a few... When coupled with a suitable apertube fast lens, these spotters will even work on a night with no moon, out in the middle of nowhere. It's actually quite difficult to buy something in Australia that meets that requirement... Even to come close, you're looking at $3000 or more based on prices I've seen.

Here's a picture with a F2.2 lens ( Not very fast ) on a starlight night of the house I'm trying to build...

No moon ( or maybe a thin sliver under clouds on the horizon - can't remember which ). Some cloud. Nice and dark. A small campfire 50m away, but the inside of the structure is in shade, so the light inside is coming from the stars... There's some vignetting around the edges, but the middle is quite bright. It's also not perfectly in focus,

It was too dark for any normal Gen1 or Gen1+ scopes to produce an image that night.

These are a 40lp/mm 25mm tube with gain of up to 100,000 times, so they are comparable to military Gen3... Except for the distortion, weight and size. They are most commonly found in an AN/PVS-2. One one of the other boards, someone I know who made one did side-by-side pictures with a Gen3 ( Omni V tube from memory )... The Gen3 tube is clearly much better, but these tubes still produce a useable image and in the middle, the difference isn't all that different.

If anyone is unhappy with the image, then it's likely nothing would satisfy them - though no one is going to like the size and weight... I can't understate how huge these things are.

Here's a side-by-side comparison to modern military Gen2 ( Current tech ) and normal Gen1.

David.

[Funky Munky]

Nice. So would an IR illuminator bulb in a flashlight help with the range on them?

The Gen 1 looks horrible but the Gen 1 cascade looks good.

[cj7hawk]

Nice. So would an IR illuminator bulb in a flashlight help with the range on them?

The Gen 1 looks horrible but the Gen 1 cascade looks good.

Not really. With a true starlight NV, an IR source actually decreases the range. But it will increase the detail up close - say out to 100m or so... Maybe further with a higher power source.

All torch bulbs are IR - you actually need an IR filter over the flashlight to block the visible light and only let the IR through.

David.

[Machine]

just seen this - excellent and thank you for sharing, I AM IN!!!

[len]

Count me in

[cj7hawk]

Always room for more At least while the tubes last.

I'll start buying the next set of parts myself as soon as payday, though I already have a spare tube to get started with... I'm planning on starting construction as soon as my lens mount arrives...

One thing to think about for anyone using a commercial camera lens - If you go with the C-mount lens, then although you may lose a few mm of image from the edge, you can get adapters for most camera lenses. This is useful if you don't want to destroy the camera, since the camera and the NV scope can share lenses.

Camera lens adapters can be found on ebay by searching "c-mount adapter" and click the international button.

Examples:

Nikon: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/C-Mount-Adapter-For...8#ht_500wt_1182

Pentax: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/C-Mount-Adapter-For...f#ht_500wt_1182

Olympus: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/C-Mount-Adapter-For...d#ht_500wt_1182

Otherwise, you can take the camera apart and mount it's lens adapter onto the NV front-face.

As I build mine, I'll post what I did as pictures. Not everyone will have the same parts, so others will probably need to improvise. Just post any issues you hit while making it and we'll work on getting around them.

David.

[m70]

Good on you David, Count me in!

Cheers, Paul.S